[chp]

Is there Free Will?

I was intrigued to read this quotation from Sai Baba about free will:

"People believe that every man has a free will. It is an entirely wrong belief. They imagine that it is because of man's will, determination, Sadhana and effort that he is able to achieve success. This all due to the aberrations of their Ahamkara and the reflection of their false sense of doership. Even for attaining success in the matter of attaining Self-knowledge, it is foolish to rely on one's physical, mental and intellectual abilities and resources. What is needed is to recognise and cultivate the spirit of oneness of all that exists."

Sadhana: A spiritual discipline or path.
Ahamkara: Sanskrit word made of aham (I) and kara (maker), ie the ego, one's sense of doership.

Spiritualists believe in the Seven Principles one of which is PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY. This implies that there is Free Will. And if there is Free Will then the future is not set.

If we psychics can predict the future then this implies that there is NO Free Will. Spiritualism claims we have free will. So what do you believe? Is there Free Will?

[Rafikki]

Dear Craig,

Reacting to the statement: 'If we psychics can predict the future then this implies that there is NO Free Will'. ' Here are my thoughts:

From Wikipeidia I have found the following, as I looked up 'Ceteris Paribus':

'Ceteris Paribus is a Latin phrase, literally translated as "with other things [being] the same," and usually rendered in English as "all other things being equal." A prediction, or a statement about causal or logical connections between two states of affairs, is qualified by ceteris paribus in order to acknowledge, and to rule out, the possibility of other factors which could override the relationship between the antecedent and the consequent.

A ceteris paribus assumption is often essential in all predictive sciences ? in order to formulate scientific laws it is usually necessary to rule out some unspecified set of relevant factors which could interfere with the effect of some causal factor.'

(There is more in the article about this phrase, however this part is what I find relates to this particular question.)

I add these words from Wikipedia as they bring forward some good points to my understanding of what 'prediction' actually is.
As I see it, some people have an xtraordinary ability to foresee many things - and what makes sense to me is that what they are particularly good at, is working out the most likely outcome of a situation, with all other things being and remaining the same as at the time the prediction is made.
Thereby, the concept of 'Free will' still stands - we are, and remain free to do whatever, whenever. The ability to predict does not interfeer with this in any way.
Additionally, this also explains why sometimes the psychics that predict do get it wrong: Due to free will, all things did not stay the same, so the prediction did not hold up.

I think also that the same thing happens on a global level - in the sense that some people seem to be very much in tune with the collective, combined energy of certain parts of this world. Be it Mother Earth, the energy of a country or what have you. The people who are able to predict great wheather disasters, for instance, are therefore doing the same thing as I see it: They are in tune with particular flow of energy, if you will - and are able to make a qualified estimation of a likely outcome if that energy flow continues without interuption.

Love,
Rafikki

[Rafikki]

As for the quote by Sai Baba that you have shared - As I see it, he is commenting on only one way of looking at the concept of 'free will' - and that in the assumption that it only can and does exsist through the force and will of Ego-related actions and thoughts of Man.
I find that in this quote he speaks perhaps more about what the concept of 'Free will ' is NOT; how his understanding seems to be that 'free will' has nothing to do with will and force and desire from the ego of a person. Moreso, that freedom is to be found in the realisation and acceptance of 'oneness'.

Which ever way you look at the words though, I can not help but think: Reading those very words of Sai Baba on 'free will' - each and every person has the option of accepting or disregarding them. Does that not, in all it's simplicity, suggest that whatever our motivation may be, we have a choice at all times?

[stacy]

My husband once had a very interesting psychic reading-he was told by a psychic that he would not marry or settle down and would spend hislife travelling with work. AS she was saying this to him, my husband remembers thinking , No thats not what I want and made a decision about his life at that moment. He never uttered a word to the psychic just listened to her words as he thought. As soon as he made that choice in his mind, the psychic told him that the reading had changed-she could see he would marry a dark haired girl have 3 children, settle and be happy.
Maybe we do have free will but psychics ability to forsee the future appiles to the path that the person is on at that moment and they have the power and free will to change their future.

[PM]

I agree with Sai Baba on this one. My opinion is that we THINK we have free will, we THINK we are excercising this by percieving ourselves to be making choices, but time is a human frailty, a human condition, and has no reality in the 'eternal now' spirit so often speak of, and which quantum physics backs up quite logically.Therefore, when there is no time, everything has already happened, everythign is yet to happen, everything is happening now, there is no begginning, there is no end, no past, no future, only the eternal now, only a timeless sequence, but one which our human perception has segregated in to a past, present and future. Psychics make predictions that do not come to pass simply because the psychic is wrong, not coz the outcome was ever alterable, even if we thing that is what we have done - altered it. How can one alter the 'past'?. I don't know if that will make sense to anyone, I don't make much sense to myself half the time and I could do my head in thinking like that - so yesterday, today, tomorrow, whatever, it is just simpler to ignore myself and play the game. :roll:

[Rafikki]

Originally Posted by PM

I agree with Sai Baba on this one. My opinion is that we THINK we have free will, we THINK we are excercising this by percieving ourselves to be making choices, but time is a human frailty, a human condition, and has no reality in the 'eternal now' spirit so often speak of, and which quantum physics backs up quite logically.Therefore, when there is no time, everything has already happened, everythign is yet to happen, everything is happening now, there is no begginning, there is no end, no past, no future, only the eternal now, only a timeless sequence, but one which our human perception has segregated in to a past, present and future. Psychics make predictions that do not come to pass simply because the psychic is wrong, not coz the outcome was ever alterable, even if we thing that is what we have done - altered it. How can one alter the 'past'?. I don't know if that will make sense to anyone, I don't make much sense to myself half the time and I could do my head in thinking like that - so yesterday, today, tomorrow, whatever, it is just simpler to ignore myself and play the game. :roll:

I wonder then... does this then suggest that when in spirit, it is not possible to change ones mind?

[PM]

Originally Posted by Rafikki

I wonder then... does this then suggest that when in spirit, it is not possible to change ones mind?

Not at all. At no stage did I say people can't change their mind. What I actually said was, "we think we have free will, we think we are exercising this by percieving ourselves to be MAKING CHOICES".

My contention tho, is (based on my perception of time and the science that backs it up) whether or not making choices is truly an act of free will or if we are really just playing in to exactly what always was/is/will be, therefore making the concept of free will a perception rather than an empirical fact. I might be right, I might be wrong, I might be a complete tripper, but I do agree with Sai Baba on this one. In any case tho, I will say, I make no suggestion that any one should be excempt from personal responsibilty - spiritualist or not.

Off tangent - The concept of changing one's mind in an eternal moment tho, is probably throwing some people. How can you choose one thing "now", and then choose something else also "now"?. I did use the word "timeless sequence" implying that there is change, but the real answer (IMO) lies in truly conceptualizing the interrelation of energy, light, matter, space time continuums, etc, ...basically in E=MC2. I am not Steven Hawkins tho, and will fry my brain and start looking like my mad cow avatar if I tried to explain myself in understandable words, but to me, E=MC2 is a basis for explaining just about everything. Off to find a head ache pill. :lol:

Maybe I'm just misunderstanding the quote here, but the way I see it is IF there were "NO" freewill, then that basically means that everything, and everyone is on a path that was chosen for them, (and my question here would be by whom?) that they have no means to change that path. So, does this mean that our decisions are not actually 'freewill'? Does this mean that we're basically just here for the ride; just a spirit placed in a physical body, and have no control in our life's path?
Personally, I find that very difficult to swallow. Maybe I have too much ego, I don't know, but for some reason I just can't make any sense out of that quote. :roll:
I've also read in "Spirit Teachings" that we DO have freewill.....so I guess this could be one of our life's mysteries to be found out when we finally arrive home in the Spirit Realm. In the meantime, I'll just go about my everyday life in the Love and Light of Spirit. I'll leave all this up to the masterminds of the universe to figure out. :wink:

[Sibyl]

If we go back to the first post:

"If we psychics can predict the future then this implies that there is NO Free Will. Spiritualism claims we have free will. So what do you believe? Is there Free Will?"

Who says psychics can predict the future? I have not seen any evidence of this. Possible futures are predicted and sometimes these turn out to be accurate but that is by sheer good luck than by good management.

What would be the point in living if we could consult a psychic and be told our futures? What lessons could be learned? What if the future was dire?

I am of the opinion that psychics pick up on a future where the wheels are already in motion for that particular future to happen and the 'sitter' is carrying that information on his/her auric field. They can also pick up on the 'sitters' wishes of how they would like their future to be? There are so many imponderables and unknowns, I think claiming to foresee the future is very arrogant and even spirit tell us they can only see a little way forward.

I also do not believe in Free Will - not in the absolute. I think we have choices otherwise there would be no point in living (God could play with automatons) but I do not believe we have total free will.

[chp]

Ahh I was wondering when you'd spot this one Vi! (slowly unscrews the petrol can and pours on fire)

So can anyone give us just one instance where the future has been predicted for certain? Something that could not have possibly been known and for which the 'wheels were not already in motion'.

If we can prove for certain that the future can be predicted at all then surely we need to question whether there is free will or not?

:wink:

To get you thinking have a look at our reasons why we do not allow predictions on the site:
http://www.psychics.co.uk/psychics/predictions.html

What do you think. Is it possible for psychics (or the spirit) to predict the future?