[2bisnot2b]

Personally, I don't see anything wrong with one being skeptic on any subject. That is what makes us ask questions, and without asking questions, how else would we have growth? But as stated, there is a difference between a skeptic with a closed mind and one with an open mind.

There is, and always will be people that need a certain amount of scientific data in order for them to believe anything presented to them, and even when there is scientific data, they will still refute it. Here's a perfect example: Look at the scientific data of "evolution" but yet there are masses of people that still won't believe it, because it goes against their "faith." Conversely, there are also masses of people that do accept the scientific data!

As far as physic and mediumship scientific data and testing, as Amp said, there is much scientific data that backs this up! However, again, there are those that refuse to see that, or even search for it for that matter. Sometimes I think that people just have their mind made up, and that's all there is to it, and if that is right and just for them, then so be it. For us to judge them, or they us (psychics and mediums) is sort of a mute point. I, as a psychic medium, am not looking to convert or prove to anyone as to what I come to know (by taking time to learn) to be true. In my opinion, it is up to the individual to come to that conclusion on their own accord, and I would hope they would do that by studying the subject broadly instead of just taking the word of "one" person. Hopefully, at that point, when they want to oppose the subject, they will do so with appropriate “facts” at hand.

No matter what subject, scientific or not, you will always have those of opposing opinions, (not always based on “fact”) and of course, when the subject is one that does not align with what is considered the "norm", then "proof" seems to be needed for one to believe. With some people, even an abundance amount of proof isn't sufficient.

Either way, believe or not, we shall all receive our individual “proof” upon our earthly death. Until then, I prefer to just try and live in peace and harmony and simply respect the fact that it is quite suitable to agree to disagree without being judgmental of those that oppose our beliefs.

[JamieJones]

Originally Posted by Etheress

Just thinking that humans would be a lot more advanced scientifically and spiritually if scientists and researchers did what they're supposed to and investigate.

Maybe you should stop using this medium (no pun intended) of communication (the internet) as I'm fairly sure that came about as a result of a body of scientific knowledge that has been growing for thousands of years. I'm also fairly sure that spiritualism had nothing to do with it as it only began in the 19th century.

The next time you want to receive any sort of medical treatment, you should refuse it on the grounds that it was developed by a "closed-minded" scientist. Scientists are open-minded to logical thought, intelligent debate and a little thing called EVIDENCE. The reason scientists are "closed-minded" to the paranormal is because it has never been proven! That's what happens, if no evidence for a theory is found, they move on to test other assumptions. What they don't do is try and fool themselves as well as rip people off to earn a living. If sound evidence was provided on a consistent basis, the scientific community would have time for these claims. It's no wonder James Randi's million dollars will never be won. People back out or give lame excuses or even just fail.

Scientists strive to further advance the knowledge of mankind! To save lives and ease suffering around the world! What do psychics do? When are they going to find a cure for something?

Spiritualism or anything that comes under the umbrella of "the paranormal" is purely religion under a different name.

That is all.

JJ

[gazzAB]

Originally Posted by JamieJones

Maybe you should stop using this medium (no pun intended) of communication (the internet) as I'm fairly sure that came about as a result of a body of scientific knowledge that has been growing for thousands of years. I'm also fairly sure that spiritualism had nothing to do with it as it only began in the 19th century.

The next time you want to receive any sort of medical treatment, you should refuse it on the grounds that it was developed by a "closed-minded" scientist. Scientists are open-minded to logical thought, intelligent debate and a little thing called EVIDENCE. The reason scientists are "closed-minded" to the paranormal is because it has never been proven! That's what happens, if no evidence for a theory is found, they move on to test other assumptions. What they don't do is try and fool themselves as well as rip people off to earn a living. If sound evidence was provided on a consistent basis, the scientific community would have time for these claims. It's no wonder James Randi's million dollars will never be won. People back out or give lame excuses or even just fail.

Scientists strive to further advance the knowledge of mankind! To save lives and ease suffering around the world! What do psychics do? When are they going to find a cure for something?

Spiritualism or anything that comes under the umbrella of "the paranormal" is purely religion under a different name.

That is all.

JJ

actually you might want to rethink that idea research psychical reasearch involving selected mediums

the evidence is there and spiritulism is in fact the only religion based on proven scientific investigation.

spiritulism and science isnt about who is the biggest kid on the block or whos idea is the greatest its about devloping ideas and investigating them together after all who can claim to be spirttually developing without being prepared to put their money where their mouth is?

So rather than having a discussion that reminds me of 2 kids arguing about whos dad is the biggets lets sit down and ensure that all sides are listened to and followed through exactly like they did with PRiSM ;)

just my opinion on this one

[JamieJones]

Originally Posted by gazzAB

actually you might want to rethink that idea research psychical reasearch involving selected mediums

the evidence is there (1) and spiritulism is in fact the only religion (5) based on proven scientific investigation.

spiritulism and science isnt about who is the biggest kid on the block (2) or whos idea is the greatest its about devloping ideas and investigating them together after all who can claim to be spirttually developing without being prepared to put their money where their mouth is? (3)

So rather than having a discussion that reminds me of 2 kids arguing about whos dad is the biggets lets sit down and ensure that all sides are listened to (4) and followed through exactly like they did with PRiSM ;)

just my opinion on this one

1 - Show me. And remember - extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

2 - I refer you back to the original quote from a previous poster "Just thinking that humans would be a lot more advanced scientifically and spiritually if scientists and researchers did what they're supposed to and investigate."

3 - I'm not entirely sure what you mean here, but reducing infant mortality rate drastically through medical intervention and eradication of smallpox from the world should be considered "putting their money where their mouth is".

4 - I think you must be seeing things. Numerous posts have attacked scientists and researchers, calling them narrow-minded and liars - I was merely defending them.

Science and spiritualism shouldn't really be compared as science is not a religion like spiritualism is, as you correctly pointed out (5). Religion requires faith and believing therefore by it's very definition cannot be based upon evidence - if it was it would become science.

[gazzAB]

Originally Posted by JamieJones

1 - Show me. And remember - extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

2 - I refer you back to the original quote from a previous poster "Just thinking that humans would be a lot more advanced scientifically and spiritually if scientists and researchers did what they're supposed to and investigate."

3 - I'm not entirely sure what you mean here, but reducing infant mortality rate drastically through medical intervention and eradication of smallpox from the world should be considered "putting their money where their mouth is".

4 - I think you must be seeing things. Numerous posts have attacked scientists and researchers, calling them narrow-minded and liars - I was merely defending them.

Science and spiritualism shouldn't really be compared as science is not a religion like spiritualism is, as you correctly pointed out (5). Religion requires faith and believing therefore by it's very definition cannot be based upon evidence - if it was it would become science.

1. Look yourself i have given you the name to search for if you vcant be bothered then thats your issue

2. i would extend that to all parties not just scientists

3. I agree science does help in lots of ways i was merely saying that in the spiritual side thenm mouth and money should meet

4. I would have to say as well some scientists are narrow minded and it has been proven many times they can lie surprise surprise guess that makes them human and nor demi gods.

5. You misquote I said spiritulism is proven by science and is the only religion to be so. I fail to see how something that is proven cannot also be a religion after all scientists worship facts and figures like they were a religion or is it only when dealing with the "paranormal or to do with teh God figures" that this rule works"

I personally find your opinion biased and the fact you arent even prepared to search for answers on a route given also shows inflexability not good traits for any scientist

just again my opinion

[ancientlily]

Remarkable yes,real yes, unexplainable deffinitly not,, I have had personal experience with being the sitter for mediums who have bought spirit through and validated with information that there is no way in the world they could know, one even did a sketch of my Dad, a man she had never met, didnt even know he had passed, and didnt know me from the hundreds of others who she dealt with on a professional basis day after day, but because it is my faith and belief that we only pass from our physical body, and live on in spirit watching and helping our loved ones,of course its explainable,, I dont understand the deeper parts of maths and science,, because I find that unexplainable does that mean its not real ?? you could talk for me for hours about such subjects and I would still not get it as they say. There are schools for learning science just like there are schools for developing and learning about ones pyschic/mediumistic abilities, I know which one i would rather choose, cheers have a good one ancientlily/robyn

[Emerald111]

''What we call 'matter' vanishes when scientific
analysis thinks to grasp it. But we find as the support
of the universe and the origin of all form, Force —
the dynamic element.

Everything runs, flies, falls, rolls, rushes through
the void, but at such respective distances that it all
appears to be at rest. . . . Our planet is but the play-
thing of the cosmic forces which accompany it in the
meadows of the sky, and it is the same with every-
thing existing in the universe. Matter is merely
obedient to force."
Nicolas Camille Flammarion

By the way Spiritualism is science,philosophy and religion based on facts.

Emerald

[JamieJones]

Originally Posted by gazzAB

1. Look yourself i have given you the name to search for if you vcant be bothered then thats your issue

2. i would extend that to all parties not just scientists

3. I agree science does help in lots of ways i was merely saying that in the spiritual side thenm mouth and money should meet

4. I would have to say as well some scientists are narrow minded and it has been proven many times they can lie surprise surprise guess that makes them human and nor demi gods.

5. You misquote I said spiritulism is proven by science and is the only religion to be so. I fail to see how something that is proven cannot also be a religion after all scientists worship facts and figures like they were a religion or is it only when dealing with the "paranormal or to do with teh God figures" that this rule works"

I personally find your opinion biased and the fact you arent even prepared to search for answers on a route given also shows inflexability not good traits for any scientist

just again my opinion

1. NO YOU DIDN'T supply me with a name. There was the word "prism" in an unrelated sentence towards the end of your post, that doesn't count. This is how you go about providing a piece of evidence:

Functional Impairment in Patients With Schizotypal, Borderline, Avoidant, or Obsessive-Compulsive Personality Disorder
link - http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/...ract/159/2/276

Note the link to a reputable website (a journal abstract) not just one word.

2. That makes no sense, I was pointing out that some "open-minded" individual on these forums started attacking people.

3. Again, this makes no sense. What EXACTLY do you mean by the money and mouth should meet? Needs explaining because it makes little to no sense. Does it mean people who have paranormal abilities need to start proving them in proper conditions like most research? If so then I wholeheartedly agree.

4. Obviously they are human and naturally would be fallible at some points. HOWEVER, their whole career is not based on a lie, which the same cannot be said for mediums and the like.

5. NO I DIDN'T misquote you, you said that spiritualism is a religion and I agree with that statement because it is NOT based on facts.

So, you find my opinion biased? Based on what? The fact that I look for evidence and truth rather than solely my own personal experiences? I think it's more people with your beliefs that are biased. As I said before, you DID NOT give me a route to research down, you said the word "prism" as if it was some private joke. If you had said,"look into the prism situation" and also provided a link to a REPUTABLE source, then I would have of course looked into it.

"inflexibility"? That describes the attitude of a psychic medium who gets tested in a lab, then finds out they perform no better than chance, but keeps their opinion the same. They use excuses such as "The vibrational level is bad", etc. However, if a scientist was to learn of data that CONSISTENTLY (in HUNDREDS of different experiments, across many years and locations, using sound methods) undermined the theory they had devised, they would abandon it and search for more reliable theories. This is the reason why scientists have not all accepted the paranormal beliefs as reality - over the many research studies conducted on them, the vast majority have shown no effect better than chance, and those that have have been shown to have flawed methodology.

[JamieJones]

Originally Posted by ancientlily

Remarkable yes,real yes, unexplainable deffinitly not,, I have had personal experience with being the sitter for mediums who have bought spirit through and validated with information that there is no way in the world they could know, one even did a sketch of my Dad, a man she had never met, didnt even know he had passed, and didnt know me from the hundreds of others who she dealt with on a professional basis day after day, but because it is my faith and belief that we only pass from our physical body, and live on in spirit watching and helping our loved ones,of course its explainable,, I dont understand the deeper parts of maths and science,, because I find that unexplainable does that mean its not real ?? you could talk for me for hours about such subjects and I would still not get it as they say. There are schools for learning science just like there are schools for developing and learning about ones pyschic/mediumistic abilities, I know which one i would rather choose, cheers have a good one ancientlily/robyn

Sorry, personal experiences and anecdotal evidence count for very little. I could point you towards people who believe that they are Napoleon. Humans can be very easily manipulated, and see patterns where there are often not. This is an important survival mechanism but seems to cause a lot more trouble nowadays.

Just because you don't understand certain parts of maths and science, does not mean they are not true because THEY WORK. They are the reason you are able to communicate with people all over the world by looking at a screen. The reason why space travel, road networks, bridges, medicine, houses and more work is because of the "deeper parts" of maths and science.

The unexplainable parts of spiritualism have brought us nothing, and have been shown to have been founded by frauds - the Fox sisters (look them up if you like, they even confessed later on in their lives.)

[JamieJones]

Originally Posted by Emerald111

''What we call 'matter' vanishes when scientific
analysis thinks to grasp it. But we find as the support
of the universe and the origin of all form, Force —
the dynamic element.(1)

Everything runs, flies, falls, rolls, rushes through
the void, but at such respective distances that it all
appears to be at rest. . . . Our planet is but the play-
thing of the cosmic forces which accompany it in the
meadows of the sky, and it is the same with every-
thing existing in the universe. Matter is merely
obedient to force."
Nicolas Camille Flammarion (2)

By the way Spiritualism is science,philosophy and religion based on facts (3) .

Emerald

1. Nope, sorry - matter doesn't vanish when scientific analysis measures it. Force, the dynamic element? What the? Show me some research about this, it does sound intriguing. It just sounds really vague and slightly made-up, that's all. When physicists name the types of forces, they name the few specific forces that they have been able to demonstrate by testing. Not sure where you pulled your force from.

2. Here's another interesting quote for you:

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence

Carl Sagan

3. It is not science. Religion is never based on facts, hence the fact you have to have faith. Show me the facts it is based on that aren't just based on belief.