[stargemmer]

Hi Nat, & Nor,
Well, I think Nat you are being a over sensitive here. What I took issue with is exactly this: a person comes on the forum and posts an experience which is very real to him, very real. You come on and don't present your aspect on it as an opinion or a theory,but an out and out fact, absolution. Now, I probably would actually agree with you on most of these experiences, but then this guy was protesting to you, no this was real, no it actually happend and I was fully aware etc. You then come back in a very bluff way and dismiss this out of hand, & it was actually invalidative.
So, all in all I'm just trying to get back to basics: we are all on this plane here and have a lot to learn. There are many theories and opinions regarding this and other phenomena. And despite what you say about clinical proof, there is actually none. Most psychiatrists call themselves scientists and use brain theory & genetic experimentation results to dismiss the spirit out of hand. They actually have no proof of this, nor any proof that Sleep Paralysis is all in the mind.

What I am actually saying is: give direction, give help, but don't be dogmatic. Present these things as what they are: opinions, theories, not fact. Offer the options of what it COULD be to the person, then grant them the importance and their own to beingness to then choose "yes, that's real to me, that's what happened, that makes me feel better as it makes sense".
But I can't agree with bigotry and enforcement of ideas that "this IS true whether you like it or not, bud!" because it won't work. You won't change anyone's ideas that way, and will just create antagonism.
And if I see dogmatic forcing of ideas in any forum overriding what someone else is protesting is true, and no other presentation of the other theories in the debate,then yes, I will defend that right of the person to have an opinion of his own.

But hey, I can see very clearly you have a lot of knowledge and a lot to offer, so let's just keep peace and let it ride that now! You are right that there will be a lot of folk coming looking for guidance who don't know so much,but let's just offer them the ideas and let them decide for themselves.
And how about if there is any more of this then we PM it with an idea to resolution, and at least agree to differ here for now.

[Nat]

Hi Stargemmer,

I am not sensitive, ... you're the one continuing to resort to insults. So I am bigoted now for accepting what is known and not what is unknown? I'd call that discerning myself, but please yourself, it does not bother me. If it is not bigoted tho to dismiss science, medicine, etc, when there is clinical proof of an identified chemical that induces this as well as medication that can prevent it, then I don't know what is. You think a pill can stop a ghost?

Once again, I don't accept ghosts as an option - so no, I won't be giving your opinion to people just to appease you. You're going to have to live with that I'm afraid, because I am not about to start making scary unproven suggestions to people just because you happen to believe them.

Give help, give guidance, but don't suggest to people something sinister could be happening to them if you can't back it up. (...and giving some idea's for solutions, not just dropping it on them and leaving them with it, would be ideal) That is very irresponsible imo, you could be responsible for frightening a lot of people and making their situations worse than they need be. Would you sleep well knowing someone else is not because you want to insist despite your lack of evidence that ghosts can do these things to us? I know I certainly wouldn't!

You can object all you like, think what you like, call me anything you like, water off a ducks back here, ... but what is better, someone being aware of being in SP and thinking the physical and mental phenomena associated with it comes from themselves and not panicking, .... or someone being in SP and thinking a ghost is sitting on them, strangling them, and god knows what else that will terrify them? I think the answer is pretty obvious, but I can't believe I have to keep pointing out to you the potential ramifications of your own position which have the potential to cause incredible harm. At least my position is not frightening people, so I m very comfortable with it.

Yes, if you want to PM by all means go ahead, ... but I think I have made it abundantly clear that I am not about to adopt your position and certainly not going to be responsible for scaring anyone, so your wasting your breath. You can't influence me to do that to someone - end of story - so there is really nothing to discuss. If you don't like that, well I am sorry, but I feel quite strongly when it comes to peoples fear factors, so that is the way it is, and the way it will stay.

As for future differences of opinion and your suggestion of PM's, ... fine if you really feel the need, but I certainly don't feel I have to be resolving all my opinions with you in each instance. Are you planing to PM everyone who makes a statement you don't agree with? (rhetorical question) You have made posts on other threads stating things that I think are dogmatic and incorrect, and guess what, I ignored them. You should try it sometimes.

Nat xxx

[Rosalie]

I have been away from these boards for many months so forgive me for interrupting this thread. It seems to me that Stargemmer was not disagreeing with you Nat, simply saying that it would be more appropriate to offer an opinion rather than state a fact? I totally agree with you that sleep paralysis is a medical condition, and have on many occasions signposted people here to a FAQ page, however it's surely each individuals choice to accept what they are able and disregard the rest.

Bright Blessings xXx

[Nat]

Hi Hun, long time no speak xxx

Yes, I am well aware exception was taken to me stating Kanishibari and Juno's description of her own experience was sleep paralysis. However, the set of descriptions given, ARE those that ARE of Sleep Paralysis. Even Star agrees that the set of phenomena known as SP happens, ... the problem arose tho, not in the SP, but in how the SP occurs. Star's line of questioning/comments indicate that she appears not to acknowledge scientific and medical knowledge on this despite evidence that there is a chemical that causes this, medication that stops this, ... and instead believes ghosts can be responsible for it. So, no, no one was ever saying SP was wrong, ... I am not sure why you had that idea, ... it appears exception was taken to me stating ghosts were not responsible for it as a cause.

Now, whilst I was more concerned about the potential ramifications of people being frightened by believing this, and could not originally be bothered going round 2 debating the semantics so chose not to respond to Star challenging whether a ghost has consciousness or not, I, as do most of the sites staff, mod's, and the teachers from the worlds leading spiritual education organizations, etc, define ghosts as an energetic imprint on an environment, that they don't have consciousness, and are not capable of physically interacting or affecting someone. So whilst it would have kept the peace for some, if I had of added imo, I usually do, and I blooming well would have if I knew such a scene was going to be made about it coz this is boring me like you would not believe, what I said was correct by the standards of the SNU, SPR, NASC, VSU, ISF, etc, - the leading bodies in various countries and the world.

So unless we are to throw 5 centuries of combined spiritual education, research, experiments, etc, out the window and say all these educational bodies and teachers within them are wrong just because someone comes along down the track, who thinks something else, then I was quite right in expressing it as a statement in this instance. Liked or not, agreed with or not, unless we do in fact throw all this education out the window as it suits some to be done, (on what basis that makes their thoughts correct or should be accepted over all these bodies I don't know), then no, I see no reason why I should have to start phrasing ghosts not being responsible for SP as tho I am speculating. Next no one will be able to say ghosts don't enter dreams, ghosts do not have the means with which to harm people, ghosts don't attach themselves to people, etc, etc, coz that is about on par with what we are talking about here. What a productive way to go - not!

If ghost is no longer allowed to have a definition, then I guess we also have to throw the definitions of psychic, mediums, lucid dreams, psychometry, mental and physical phenomena, and everything else out the window too as soon as some one thinks centuries of knowledge can be swept away or become incorrect just because they have decided on something else. Can crop circles now be the impression my **** leaves when sitting in a field?, can a UFO now be an insect buzzing past that I don't know the name of?, can I hear objectively and say it is direct voice phenomena?, can I go in to trance and say a spirit entered my body and possessed me, ... would it be ok for me to proagate all that? .... And further, will it be accepted for me to call anyone who states a definition of these things that does not match whatever I have chosen to come up with conceited, patronizing and bigoted? I think not!

As an observation, (coz it really does not bother me) of what has actually gone on here, I find it incredibly rude to have been branded all these things because someone does not know and/or agree with centuries worth of spiritualist education. More over, to be branded them by someone who makes statements as fact when they have nothing to support it, is the height of hypocrisy and a full on joke.

I could have added imo, I could have said what I just have about ghosts, ... however, considering what I have just said, I really don't see why I and all these highly qualified people from all these reputable teaching bodies should start to THINK what is KNOWN about ghosts to appease those who either don't know or choose to ignore it, that is how the info becomes lost, .... but more over, why on earth should I indulge the rudeness, personal accusations, and hypocrisy of someone who I think could potentially cause harm by suggesting scary things could be happening to people with no evidence for it? That is not the way to negotiate with me.

Anyone can think anything they like about anything they like, they can choose to ignore known descriptions if they like, - I was the one who said to give people some credit that they are not mindless twits, - but as I also said, I pity all the people who do believe and get frightened by such ideas. I really do.

Nat xxx

[fholb]

I know nothing about this sort of thing other than I have experience sleep paralysis as a teenager and it was so real and so scary. I thought or felt another presence had come into the room just before it happened, I too couldn't sleep and could swear I never fell asleep but having read a little about it at the time, when it happened again I was still scared but could deal with it better. I even thought if I hung on and allowed it to happen I might experience this astral plaining thing but I was too scared to let it go that far. It stopped after a few years but I never forgot it. I prefered to think it was sleep paralysis rather than a ghost.

Just a thought though, could a person experience both sleep paralysis and a spirit come along at the same time but one hasn't caused the other as such? That way no one would be wrong!

[adele]

Hi, Just signed up on here because I would like to understand and know more of what I have recently experienced. I have been interested in developing my sixth sense for some time. I recently attended a development class, and found it fascinating, I have also been reading up on the subject everynight before going to sleep. I have experienced a weighted down feeling in the past, as if someone or something was on top of me. Anyway, what has really scared me was that after my hubby got up for work around 05:30 am, he says goodbye then I must of drifted back off to sleep. I remember very clearly that I was talking to a lady sat behind a table, and she asked me if I knew ETHEL, i remember saying yes on the earth plane (thinking of my aunt) then I suddenly shouted out to the lady GRAN ETHEL do you mean GRAN ETHEL?. The lady held my hand and said that she was here, at that precise moment my whole body tightened up, a feeling of being completely paralysed from head to toe, I tried to shout out but no sound would come out of my mouth, it felt frightening really. Anyway, I can't remember whether it was me or the lady that let go of my hand, as soon as that happened the feeling disappeared, I then felt normal again.

I would also like an explanation if possible why recently, I was sat in my lounge reading on my own, when a young bird appeared at my window, the bird kept tapping at the window and looked like it wanted to come in, at first I thought it may be injured as I have a cat and it's not often you see birds in my garden or at a window. However, after a while it disappeared so I forgot about it, till the next morning after my hubby got up, I heard tapping at my window, this time at my bedroom window, I flew out of bed to have a look and shouted my hubby to take a look, he did see and so did my daughter, they thought it was qute. From that Saturday afternoon then every morning till the following Thursday it appeared around 7ish, at my bedroom window. Since that Thursday morning it has never been seen again. My husband's father was diagnosed with cancer just after Christmas, and has been very poorly, he was brought home from the Hospice on the Wednesday and died the following Saturday, just seems coincidental, could the bird been trying to warn me about something?????

My eldest daughter has also experienced around the same time of the above waking up to a very loud sound of someone knocking on her chest of draws next to her bed early hours of the morning. What was this?

I would be very grateful if someone could explain what I/we are experienceing?.

Look forward to your replies

Adele

[holyorders]

i see an argument... lol :P

anyway, i too had a what-you-call "SLEEP PARALYSIS" experience once. I was lying on my bed (with my usual sleeping position, face down on the mat, or what filipino's call NAKADAPA). Suddenly, I don't know why but my body began feeling the paralysis. I tried to move but something feels like holding my body in bolts and i can't even move a finger. It felt like forever in that state until what felt like a few minutes to me shocked me when I realized it was already 4 AM in the morning (AND I'M SURE I slept around 1 AM, and that happened a few minutes after I lay down the bed). I tried screaming but no voice came out...

After that, I became horrified and shocked. Morning came and I never told anyone about it, not even one, until now, afraid that nobody would believe or might even call me weirdo or crazy...

I don't know about this "GHOST" thingy on this issue.., though it really felt to me like someone was ******* holding me tight like there was no letting go...[/i]

[adele]

Hi there,

Thanks for your reply, yes I have felt this being held down feeling before now, I have even felt (it was many years ago now) that something jumped over my bed, like a small animal, like a rat or something. It was not heavy enough to be a person, but I definately felt it and was very frightened.

I have never used an alarm clock, and have always been able to wake whenever I have needed to, although at times I have experienced someone shouting my name into my ear, then I have woken..............it has got to have been my guide........but wish it would talk to me more!!

Have you experienced this too?

Speak soon Adele

[Tulkor]

Originally Posted by junokat

In Japan, there is a word called Kanashibari....
It occurs mostly when you are lying in bed either going into sleep or coming out of sleep....
You suddenly get the feeling of a body weight on top of you...as if some person sat or lay down on top of you...you then feel the sensation being held down...you try to move but you can't...you try to scream bu you have no voice....
it is too scary to open your eyes....
you sometmes hear very high pits sound or sound of scratching.....
the room feels very cold...it all last for about few minutes but feels like for hours....
You body feels totally paralysed....
then you are released....
But if you open your eyes?...some people see eyes or even a face!!!

I personally experienced a momentary paralysis....its not dreamy....the senses all hightened because of fear...it vey very real!!
Has anyone experienced something similar?

first time was when i was taking a nap a few days ago. its called sleep paralysis and nothing is actually sitting on you, u breathe slower in REM sleep but if u are half awake u think that u need to be breathing more but u dont. often since u are half in teh dream world u will start seeing things, many times shadows ghost and what not but they are simply hallucinations.

i never really felt like i couldnt breathe though...which freaks me out. i felt more so a life drain feeling and i thought i was dying. i also tried to move my arms and when i looked down they were slighly blurred and were translucent.

it is often said that OBE goes along with sleep paralysis, so i may have had a halfarsed OBE ; ( but ya dont worry sleep paralysis happens and its not dangerous.

sleep apnea is dangerous though cause thats an ACTUAL LACK OF OXYGEN when sleeping.

[banban1977]

no-one has the right to say that what someone believes is wrong. i have had alot of experiences with the paranormal from the age of about 17 (i'm almost 31 now) and at first it used to bother me that some people didn't believe me. now i now better. i don't care if someone thinks what i have experienced is fake. i know what happened and that is all that counts. my partner never believed but since moving to this house,he does. so,until it happens to you,keep an open mind