[chp]

The evidence for mediumistic powers

Psychic News recently reported (issue 3860) that a court in Brazil has accepted the authenticity of two letters which were dictated by the spirit of a murdered man. The trial was held in Viamao. The unnamed medium claimed that they were from Ercy da Silva Cardoso, who was shot ?dead? in his home three years ago.

Mr Cardoso?s lover, Iara Marques Barcelos, 63, was charged with his killing.

A court spokesman said the letters communicated by the ?dead? man were accepted because prosecution lawyers made no objection. A defence lawyer commented that they were ?decisive to the verdict.?

So now spirit people can give evidence in court!!!

But now, after that somewhat silly interlude, to my discussion point: Sceptics say the human testimony is fallible and cannot be taken as proof that the spirit world can communicate. Sometimes this fallibility is used to dismiss spirit proofs, NDE experiences and so on.

If human testimony is good enough to use in a court of law to establish evidence of the truth why isn?t it good enough as proof of the Afterlife?

[libranaster]

I agree people have their heads in the sand about this stuff. They don't want to believe there fore no one else should. When are people going to open their eyes to the fact that in more and more cases psychics are being excepted as genuine by credible people. If a psychic can be used to gather evidence then isn't that undeniable proof of the after life. Especially when they come to find evidence they couldn't possibly have known about. Its time to wake up the scientific bozos and let them in on what is really going on in the world.

[Mcupid]

I think your question reflects more on a society outlook craig.. for a lot of us do take evidence of spirit as our proof of an afterlife, but of course there are many who dont believe in an afterlife .. and of course those who do, but dont believe in an ability to communicate with spirit.

now i mention a society outlook, and this is where many grey areas pop up in the way people can think and percieve these issues... some things are socially accepted as a norm. such as religion and god, not all will believe in a god or have a religous belief but throughout the world there is this accepted sense that there is a creator or god head figure.
In fact its socially accepted that a religous leader would be fair compassionate and in some sense connected to god (of course there are those with differing opinions and some people who abuse positions of power, but im trying to be general in a thought attitude)

Courts of law as such are seen socially as places where fairness and justice are performed , so verdicts made in them tend to hold some sway, or are accepted as being fair and truthful.. (again some will differ in opinion) but generally we all recognise that we tell the truth in court and that any evidence that needs divulging is usually given by experts in there field.

So why can this court of law accept this mediums evidence? and yet society as a whole still has a sceptical outlook?
I feel society will always have its sceptics. as there are always differing opinions.. but what does stop a majority socially accepted belief in a communication with afterlife?
I would have to look at what is already part of societies beliefs the religions of the area, and peoples attitudes to those religions. There are those of us who do accept this evidence given through medium ability as a proof of afterlife.. and in that courtroom there must also have been people who accepted it also.. but what cases have it been laughed out of court in?
i feel myself that there isnt a widespread enough concensus or knowledge or understanding of what mediumship is about for society to have that acceptance as a whole yet. Even now established socially accepted things such as courts and religion are oftened viewed with mistrust and some scepticism , so this makes new thinking even harder to achieve on a large scale socially. Cases such as this one do help in highlighting the issue, but the issue needs to be viewed more widespread for enough people to be aware of it.

That is i think the key.. for more people to be aware of and to be given the information and knowledge to be understanding of the issue to make a fair assessment. The more people aware the more people with a choice, and if enough feel its acceptable , hopefully in time society will come to accept it also as a whole.. (even tho i feel there will be always sceptics due to our free will and diverse thinking ) . It seems in this court room the people there made their decision
Kieron (M+cupid)

[Echolima]

This is not the first time that a Brazillian court has accepted such 'evidence'. The first time was in 1979, when a medium named Chico Xavier 'channelled' a letter apparently clearing the man convicted of a murder. The murder was re-investigated and the alleged real murderer arrested.

Incidentally, Chico Xavier never charged for his mediumship, despite meagre wages!

My first thoughts on that, and this latest case, are to wonder why, when these letters are 'written' by the victim, then the true murderer is not indicated. If a spirit can convey "it breaks my heart to see Iara accused of this", why can it not also convey something like "Jose Bloggs did it"?

Having read the text of the letter in this latest case, it offers no evidence whatsoever, nor does it say that his lover didn't do it. It only says that it breaks his heart to see Iara accused.

To move on to your question:

If human testimony is good enough to use in a court of law to establish evidence of the truth why isn?t it good enough as proof of the Afterlife?

Brazil is one of the most corrupt countries on this earth. Here are some random facts about it.

• The indigenous people have been coralled into eleven areas, but are now being evicted and killed so that companies or the wealthy can grab their land.
  
  In 1990, one in every sixteen Brazilian children died before the age of 5.
  
  Over 40% of children up to the age of two suffer from malnutrition.
  
  An official report of a parliamentary committee investigating child prostitution in Brazil starts from 500.000 child prostitutes. According to relief organizations this number is much higher.
  
  Young women and children are routinely trafficked for sex, often taken as slaves to Holland.
  
  There are around 7 million children living and working on the streets of Brazil.

I find it laughable that an intelligent person such as you should hold up anything from this country as worthy of comment, let alone as any form of proof.

Cheers
Emma

[Andrea]

Originally Posted by chp

The evidence for mediumistic powers
If human testimony is good enough to use in a court of law to establish evidence of the truth why isn?t it good enough as proof of the Afterlife?

Well firstly, I always thought that people had to be present in court at trials (I am not that au fait with the law), and by that I mean a physical appearance not a spirit one.

I think we can all rest assured that this will never happen here for the simple fact mediumship is classed as entertainment and until that changes (which it will not until someone can provide some tangible evidence) it will remain that way.

[Sibyl]

Originally Posted by Andrea

I think we can all rest assured that this will never happen here for the simple fact mediumship is classed as entertainment and until that changes (which it will not until someone can provide some tangible evidence) it will remain that way.

Tangible evidence has been given by mediums for years, and that given by physical mediums is incredible but you can only take the horse to water, you cannot make him drink. It is also an unfortunate fact that the bad mediums get the best publicity because of the entertainment tag.

I have been visiting Leslie Price's site where he states quite categorically that he accepts the fact that Helen Duncan had an extra stomach and was able to regurgitate 8 yards of cheesecloth which is fine, perhaps she could, and perhaps she did. I choose not to believe that because I cannot work out how anyone in the seance room were able to make this gooey wet mass of regurgitated cheesecloth dry out, stand up, take on the face, form and all the features of a person recognised by someone in the room and then speak - some blooming cheesecloth! Wonder if I can get some on ebay!

luv
vi

[Livewire]

Seems cheesecloth is available sibyl - fancy a new garment

http://search.ebay.co.uk/search/sear...le=cheesecloth

:smt046

Live

[Echolima]

Originally Posted by Sibyl

Tangible evidence has been given by mediums for years, and that given by physical mediums is incredible

Personally I prefer the term 'factual evidence', rather than tangible, and the real problem with every single documented case is it's just that - documented - with no factual proof.

Even today, across much of the world, a half-decent conjurer could persuade people that he was performing magic.

It's impossible after so many years to either prove or disprove Helen Duncan's claims, however, when you say
"take on the face, form and all the features of a person recognised by someone in the room "
... how can we know the person in the room that identified the 'spirit' was telling the truth? Some fraudsters work alone, others have assistants. I'm afraid that is not proof.

Emma

[Suebh]

What exactly is the evidence that is required? I am unsure at this point. Helen Duncan no longer resides in this world, how can we show you.

Confused

Sue

[Nat]

When you are there, and see it in person, as I know both myself and Vi have, (amongst numerous others) questioning tangibility does not exactly apply, ..the phenomena is touchable, it is solid, it is material, it is physical, - and it is incredibly, breath takingly, awesome. It is tangible!

When a conjurer can manifest ectoplasmic structures or body parts, or indeed full figures, ... have them recognizable to people you personally know and who are not planted in an audience, when it can be photographed, when they can speak in the voices of people's passed loved one's, speak in foreign languages known to the sitters, and supply info known only to the sitter or needing later verification, then I will accept that physical phenomena is a questionable domain in all instances - until then, the evidence I have seen is heavily on the side of it being unquestionably legitimate.

When one of these figure is known to yourself, you know if you're a fraud or not, no others opinions are required. I wish everyone could have this type of evidence.

I am going to look on ebay for some magical regurgitating cheesecloth tho, - rofl in hysterics yet again xxx My man sometimes calls me a cow ...rofl - whaddya rekon, could I stuff some in one of my extra stomach's and pull off such a stunt ???

Nat :lol: