[angelstouch]

Firstly, Angeltouch, you said that it has not been proved scientifically that re-incarnation does or does not exist. I do not know if you are a Christian but it has not been proven scientifically that Christ died on a cross with spikes through his hands and feet? Many people believe in it. You do not have to see to believe.

I was brought up a Catholic, i was taught that i would be burned in hell if i so much as smirked at someone. I was terriffied of God and the Devil. Now i am grown i have learned that God is in us all we make our own choices, and hell well that is a fabrication and the extremitiies in which i was told it existed simple does not exist. I believed in what i was told because these people were older, now i know that older does not mean wiser. And to be honest this is my point entirely, you dont have to see it to believe it, however you also dont have to believe everyone else either. you have to make your own decision on the matter and if it sits with you then fine. if not then dismiss it, but no-one has the right to push their beliefs onto others.

Secondly, Dreamscaper, by returning to the same scenario, (in the Kennedy shooting for example), the killer were returned to change his Karma in NOT KILLING Kennedy. The choice was his as the choice to do or not to do always rests with oneself. By not changing his ways, he will most probably return to this earthplane again sometime in the future with the same scenario before him. The choice will then, once again, be his to make. Making the correct choice may mean his Carmatick live may be full circle and he will not return again.

That is just silly really and i dont mean to be rude, because if you think of the hard evidence it is impossible if it was true, then you and i have at sometime commited a murder, I do beleive in Karma, like attracts like, what goes around comes around etc etc, i also know that when we die we are made to examine the mistakes we have made, look at our life and see where we could of done things differently. Now to say we have to keep coming back to repeat the same scenario does not sit with me, I find past life a fascinating subject and i will continue to practice, i will also defer my decsion until i make my own conclusions on it.
I am in contact daily with spirit and guides and yet none at all talk of Past Life. it is man who does all the talking ont his subject.....fascinating.

xxxx

[Sylvester]

[quote="angelstouch"]

That is just silly really and i dont mean to be rude, because if you think of the hard evidence it is impossible if it was true, then you and i have at sometime commited a murder, I do beleive in Karma, like attracts like, what goes around comes around etc etc, i also know that when we die we are made to examine the mistakes we have made, look at our life and see where we could of done things differently. Now to say we have to keep coming back to repeat the same scenario does not sit with me, I find past life a fascinating subject and i will continue to practice, i will also defer my decsion until i make my own conclusions on it.
I am in contact daily with spirit and guides and yet none at all talk of Past Life. it is man who does all the talking ont his subject.....fascinating.

The answer was not to come back and repeat the same scenario but to come back and NOT repeat the same scenario. One has to learn the lessons set out for one to learn to fulfill ones Karma and if one doesn't learn them - it is back to school. Being in contact daily with spirit myself, that is one question I am not willing to ask them. As far as my contact with spirit and my guides is concern, it never occurred to me to question them on the subject. But I am sure they will, in all their wisdom, talk around the subject and not supply a direct answer. Which of course, they are adept in doing.

But like you so rightly pointed out, it is a subject that has facinated mankind for a very long time and will fascinate for a long time to come. Each to his own.

[Nat]

Originally Posted by Sylvester

Thirdly, Nat according to the Thesaurus coincidence can be replaced by Twist of Fate - do you believe in Fate?

Fate is an outcome, ... but no, I don't believe in fate having twists, I believe what ever is to be, always was to be, and always has been. After all, linear time is only an earthly perception.

I don't see what this has got to do with my comment to Morille about taking some dates and coincidences and turning them in to 'evidence' for insisting his belief in reincarnation is fact tho. :?

As you have said, 'Each to their own', ... I don't believe in do-overs and I am quite comfortable that my logic makes rock solid sense to me on this. If someone can present evidence to shake it, then I will look at it again, ... but no need to so far. :wink:

Nat xxx

[purplesky]

i know its hard to believe when theres no evidence for other people
but its hard NOT to believe when you see and feel these things.

[minator]

Some of what I am about to write may seem rude to some of you and even upset others I am not going to be polite if you are offended then that is up to you, a bit like the choices we have in our many lives???

Can any of you belivers tell me why the human race is now bigger than it has EVER been but we are all supposed to be people from previous lives? This mathematical fact states with out doubt that reincarnetion is rubbish!

All this coming back to atone for previous sins make the place sound like hell. Now would god have sent Mother Theresa to hell?

Reincarnation is nothing more than people wanting to believe that they can come back for whatever insane reason they want to leave the next stage of life for?

The reason why these people have so called past life experiences is simple to explain if you change your stance ever so slightly. Thi is it:

All life in the universe is connected (don't ask how, not here!), we can all tap into this connection at will some stronger then others but we can all do it. Certain religions have tried to surpress it, but actually practice it themselves but they never could. They tried burnings and lots of other things but they missed the point big time!

As well as this connection the life force if you will stores all this gained knowledge, one reason man has huge leaps forward is becase of the abilkity to tap into this library of knowledge and use it at will. As it stores LIFE EXPERIENCES and we can tap into them at any time this is what is causing the confusion wih being alive before.

We only live once, we learn we die, we rejoin the life force, others tap in, use it and yes sometimes make mistakes. The freewill come sin being able to use this information or not.

Now you make your own mind up, but don't ask your previous selves for any help as they are not there!

[annon]

I am not sure how this connects to reincarnation.
It is a striking list of parralells yet you could make a long list of differences also.

[minator]

It connects to reincarnation by saying that instead of being reborn, as reincarnation states, people simply tap into the life force and are able to witness the life experiences of those that have come before.

This happens because life experiences are recorded if you will by the universal life force and then can be playedback and read by those that can connect to it.

What I am saying is that we are only alive once but we can read the lives of those before us and as a result of this recording we can actually experience that liffe as well.

[hopefulgirll]

When all said and done YOU choose this life and all it's hardships BEFORE you came here.

I am not sure I believe this because I am going through a very miserable time in life right now. I almost committed suicide if my friend hadn't saved me. Why would I choose to be miserable? I don't think I would have chosen to have people making fun of me all the time. I am twenty-one and I;ve been getting made fun of since I was twelve because people think I am ugly.
Honestly, I'd like to know what lesson I came to earth to learn about... I believe I came back this way because I did something bad in my past life so now I am paying for it in this life. Which is why I would love to know what I was in my past life to see if it's true or not.

[Nat]

Originally Posted by hopefulgirll

I am not sure I believe this because I am going through a very miserable time in life right now. I almost committed suicide if my friend hadn't saved me. Why would I choose to be miserable? I don't think I would have chosen to have people making fun of me all the time. I am twenty-one and I;ve been getting made fun of since I was twelve because people think I am ugly.
Honestly, I'd like to know what lesson I came to earth to learn about... I believe I came back this way because I did something bad in my past life so now I am paying for it in this life. Which is why I would love to know what I was in my past life to see if it's true or not.

Well I am glad your friend was there to help you. :smt060

Firstly I don't think anyone is ugly, (in attitude maybe - but never in looks) we just all come in all sorts of wonderful packages! I agree tho that it would be hard to imagine choosing for people to make fun of you, and I know it may sound fluffy to say that these feelings will pass, but seriously, they will! Any emotion you ever feel is in a moment, moments that pass, moments that are never permanent. What will be permanent tho, is the perspectives you will gain from the hardships you percieve yourself to endure, and that goes for all of us no matter what challenges we perceive ourselves to be facing in life, and that can be a wonderful soul growth opportunity for you, ... so maybe if we choose anything, it is a path of growth that you chose? Something to think about perhaps? You just coming to this forum seems like stepping down that path to me. Congratulations!

Seriously, it is through facing challenges, through discontent with what is external to us, that we begin to look inside ourselves and there we can find amazing reserves of strengths as well as the greatest gift - knowing ourselves, ... and inner beauty and the ongoing development of such is far more priceless and permanent than the transient state of our physical selves. When you feel people are being horrible to you, remember that, that you have got one up on anyone who would treat another in such a manner, and that what you have got you will always keep. Kicking goals I say!

It's unfortunate that people can be cruel and inflict pain one each other, and some people will just look for any reason to do that, our looks, our personality, our jobs, our life situations, absolutely anything, ... and usually, it is their own issues or downfallings which cause it, not what we think is our own, ... but the older you get, the less you will find yourself encountering the same issues within peer groups because most people just do mature, just do have experiences that make them too look beyond the material world, and they find value in different qualities. You'll just be a bit ahead of the ball game when others your age catch on. :wink:

I am sure you are just lovely.

Best Wishes
Nat xxx

[szumu01]

ONE MORE TIME...MORRILE, YOU ASK WHAT SOMEONE WILL ACCEPT AS "PROOF" FOR REINCARNATION...I WILL ASK YOU WHAT YOU WILL ACCEPT AS PROOF THAT IT IS A MYTH? IS WHAT I WRITE BELOW ENOUGH PROOF?

FROM THE SPIRITS:

Q.Do we re-incarnate again on earth?
A.Now that is a question I find difficulty in answering. I have known no one who has. I passed over many years ago, and I have round about me those who lived thousands of years ago on earth. That is all I can say, because my knowledge does not permit me to say more


30 [THIRTY] YEARS AMONG THE DEAD, 1924 By Carl A. Wickland, M.D.* It must be remembered that even Madam Blavatsky tried to RE-turn after her passing over to the spirit world. On finding that she could not will herself or choose to return to earth as she had taught in her theory of re-incarnation, Blavatsky's work in the spirit world became 'rescuing' spirits trapped in the darkness who were only looking to return to earth life and in so doing found themselves lost or, obsessing or possessing another's physical body. Putting right her erroneous earth teachings, Blavatsky helped to guide lost spirits into Spiritualistic 'rescue circles' here on earth, to help them find the light again and be able to continue their progression into the higher spirit world.

After several weeks of reading the lawyer's automatic writings and, I might add, resonating with them, I came to a message from an ancient East Indian spirit which took me by surprise. In it, he said that he believed reincarnation was a process of purification that was necessary in order for a spirit to attain a state of purification and perfection and arrive at the blissful state of Nirvana. "But in all the years of my spirit existence," he said, "I had not known of a spirit to reincarnate, and in this, my disappointment has been grievous. Karma exists in the spirit world, and many spirits of my association have become pure and perfected spirits through renunciation; yet, they have remained spirits and have progressed to the highest realms without taking another body."

"When comparing the most advanced mortals in mind and soul condition, they are not equal to us in development. This makes me wonder what improvement could be made in our condition in order for us to progress, should we enter into another mortal body. Yet, strangely, we cling to our old belief in reincarnation and congregate together, waiting for something that must happen in order for reincarnation to become the destiny of our souls..."

THE SOUL IS ENCASED IN A SPIRIT BODY
In the following message from an advanced spirit, he explains that it is impossible for a soul in the spirit world to be reincarnated back into flesh. This is because, upon leaving the mortal body, the soul will inhabit its spirit or etheric body thereafter. The spirit body is the envelope and protector of the soul and is what gives the soul its individuality as a conscious entity. The soul is encased in its spirit body which, though physical in nature, is not of a gross material. The spirit body remains with the soul as long as the soul exists. If a soul enters a mortal body, it would have to shed its spirit body, which it cannot do. Only a soul without a spirit body can enter into a mortal body.
When mortals die, their souls have already achieved the purpose of incarnation, that is, individualization of the soul. A soul may become a purified soul through the exercise of will and the expression of remorse in the spirit world. It is, therefore, absolutely unnecessary for the soul to go back to the flesh for another chance to purify itself.
Rev. Merrill goes on about how spirits are continually interacting with the mortal world; child prodigies and child geniuses are said to be old souls who have come back in re-birth. Do people not know that children are most susceptible to spirit influence from birth to six or seven years of age, whether that influencing spirit is a musician, mathematician, poet or writer of prose? How easy it is to forget that spirits are around us at all times, mingling and co-mingling.

Through Mrs. Wickland's inspirational writing, a personal friend, the late Dr. J. M. Peebles (author, lecturer, and diplomat), stated, "When I reached the spirit world, I found such glory and happiness and beauty that I now realize this little earth is a grammar school, not a university or even a high school; it is only the first lesson of life." Why should anyone want to come back again, to be confined in a body? In the spirit world, you are free to travel everywhere. Why go back to that prison again? Dr. Peebles continued, "You can learn in one day here what takes years to learn on earth. Forget reincarnation, because it is a sandbag around your neck. You will have it so centered on your mind, that you will think of nothing else, and you will stay just where you are. You cannot progress because your mind will always revert to the earth again. You cannot live on the earth more than once. Life is progression, not retrogression."
CORRECTION FROM THE OTHER SIDE
The most powerful testimonial came from Helena Blavatsky. Madam Blavatsky was a spiritualist medium of considerable talent and co-founder of the Theosophical Society. She was a pioneer of the New Thought Movement, the early forerunner of New Age. She stated, "I studied reincarnation in India and thought there was truth and justice in the theory that we come back to learn and grow. I taught the theory and wanted to bring it to the world. I felt that I remembered far back into my past, but I was mistaken. When you become sensitive and can feel the spirits around you, they speak to you by impressions, and their past will be like a panorama. A person feels it and will relive the past of spirits, but the mistake is made of taking this for the memory of past incarnations. I did not know this when I lived on earth, but when I came to the spirit side of life I learned differently. Once you reach the spirit world, where all is congenial, where all is life, where all is bliss, where there is no jealousy, no envy, where all is one grand harmony, do you think for one moment that you would want to leave that beautiful condition to come back to earth and be a little baby, restricted in mind and knowing nothing whatever?"
Memories of past lives are caused by spirits that bring such thoughts and represent the lives that they lived. A spirit impresses a person with the experiences of its life and these are implanted in the mind as one's own, causing you to think you remember your past.

Lincoln went into trance - his voice changed, and he gave an fascinating address from his spirit guide, Magnus. When he finished, there were questions and answers. The one question which stuck with me was asked by a woman concerning reincarnation. The spirit guide, Magnus, replied that he had seen many spirits waiting to return to earth, but had never seen any spirits actually leave the spirit world. Furthermore, he added that he and his companions were more advanced than mortals and, therefore, could not imagine what would be accomplished by returning to the earth. I quickly glanced over at the woman to see her reaction. She was visibly taken back; obviously, this was not what she had expected to hear.

It is true that communications, or what purport to be communications, from the dead assert the doctrine of reincarnation. But we must remember that there is no agreement in communications of the dead about their life. The disagreement is as great as it is about philosophic views among the living. The probable origin of the theory of reincarnation explains the element of truth which it contains. But the survival of personal identity, adequately supported by facts, contradicts the main doctrine of the reincarnationist. It goes to prove that we are receiving only statements of opinion, not facts, from communicators, if we accept the statements as communications from a transcendental world.
Some communicators deny the reincarnation. Some venture to adduce facts to support it, but these will not bear the slightest examination as evidence. For instance, some will tell us that they can remember a previous existence. But they do not reckon with illusions of memory. We sometimes recall something which we locate in a certain time and place, but find later that this location was wrong. When the total experience is recalled we find that we are dealing with two events connected only by similarity. We confused them because of the imperfection of the recall. This imperfect recall will explain most of the alleged instances of recollection of a prenatal past. Other facts adduced in support of reincarnation can be explained as mediumistic phenomena. That is, discarnate personalities may produce in the minds of psychics the feeling of long past time or of previous existence by the transmission, telepathically perhaps, of their own feelings and states of mind. These would naturally enough be interpreted as evidence of reincarnation. But when we find that they are memories transmitted from the discarnate to the living mind, their claims as evidence are nullified. The sense of recognizing a place which we are seeing for the first time is another type of fact like the one just considered, except that it involves space instead of time. It too can be explained either as an illusion of memory or as clairvoyance.
Either hypothesis nullifies the value of the facts as evidence for reincarnation. What it is that can recommend the doctrine of reincarnation to its believers is difficult to understand. It contains nothing desirable and nothing ethical. Reincarnation is not desirable, because it does not satisfy the only instinct that makes survival of any kind interesting, namely, the instinct to preserve the consciousness of personal identity. This is denied to the process until its end and that is never in sight! Moreover, assertion of even this return of memory is purely arbitrary. Man's only interest in survival is for the persistence of his personal identity. It is a form of the impulse towards self-preservation, which is fundamental to all the acquisitions of experience and character in this life. A future life must be the continuity of this consciousness or it is not a life to us at all. Moreover, there is nothing ethical in the doctrine. The absolutely fundamental condition of all ethics is memory and the retention of personal identity, and memory and personal identity are excluded from the process of reincarnation. That you cannot maintain a theory of responsibility in any existence without memory is a truism in ethics and even in our civil courts. If our personal identity were changed, we could not be held responsible for anything we did. If we lost our memory every five minutes we should be regarded as insane, and crime could not be ascribed to us. In cases of alternating personality, punishment might be meted out to the personality performing the act, but this restraint could not apply to the other personality. The result is that cases of dissociation and change of personality are subjects for the physician and not the police.
The doctrine of reincarnation has to face this large question. We cannot apply to any future life the categories of the present, unless personal identity be assumed. Memory from one stage to another is necessary to the continuance of existence. "Karma" without memory is retribution minus all grounds for it, abstracting everything that makes it rational. When, in the light of psychic research, we examine the early theories of animism and the doctrine of reincarnation as held among the early Greek philosophers, even the materialists Empedocles and Democritus, we may discover how the theory of reincarnation originated. Primitive animism was bound up with the belief in reincarnation, but it was not clearly worked out into a logical and consistent philosophy. We find in animism only the seeds of the doctrine, in the naive ideas of ignorant people with a penchant for explaining things. But when we recognize undeveloped spiritualism in this primitive animism, we find a clue to the origin of the myth of reincarnation.
Do spirits reincarnate? Findlay replies: ?To return would be retrogression and we have no evidence that this is nature?s plan. It sounds simple and believable to those who have never thought out how we obtain our individual minds and become individual beings. These come from our parents as already explained. There is no mystery about it, so the one who believes that he or she is the reincarnation of some individual who once lived, must explain how this separate individual mind took the place of the combined minds of his or her parents at conception. It is caused by misunderstanding of the facts and sprang from minds. These views, I may say, receive the support of my informants in the Etheric world, who say that they know of no one who has incarnated again on earth. They have with them those who live on earth thousands of years ago, and those not with them have gone on to higher planes.