[karen1977]

Anyone with any doubts should google 'zeitgeist' & watch the documentary which follows.It's quite long but it'll probably be the most important film you ever see. I've sent a copy to my cousin, a history professor in Kent& he can't find any evidence that the revelations it contained were untrue. On the contrary, he thinks things go much deeper than showed in zeitgeist! I don't believe everything I'm told, watch or read- hence my scepticism of the 'official' line. That said, I think the word of a history professor who has nothing to gain by debunking or confirming the film's credibility has far more value than tittle-tattle on the internet or speculation by conspiricy theorists. And what happened on 9/11 is just the tip of the iceberg! Could give you a hundred examples, but it'll be more fun if you see it for yourselves. Incidentally, the reason i sent my cuz a copy was because i was so shocked at the level of corruption indicated & wanted to be sure in myself that this wasn't some hateful propaganda film before i recommended it to friends& family. I have found absolutely no evidence that this is the case so must concede that the views contained are accurate. Would love to hear what people thought of it if they also saw it. Karenxxx

[dreaming]

I watched alot of footage online about 9/11 and came to the conclusion it was the government. All the evidence seemed to point to them.

Until, I read a bit in a tv guide about a show coming on where a man was talking about a loved one being on one of the planes that hit the building, now I think it cant have been the government

[dreaming]

Because they said the planes that hit the towers were cancelled that day and had no passengers on, yet that man claimed his loved one was on one of the planes

[karen1977]

It's hard to believe, I know, but all it really proves is how far certain criminal elements within government would go to further an agenda- especially if oil & occupation of oil-rich countries is the agenda. No-one wants to think that the very people who are meant to protect us are letting people die, but it's hardly the first time. How many people were sent to certain death during WW1 & WW2? How many innocent Japanese people died when we dropped the bomb? Twice? I just think it's rich to go on about the threat of WMD's when we're the ones who have the bombs & have proven we're more than capable of deploying them. When you stop & think about it, no civilisation in history, including our own, actually have a problem with dispensing with their people- whether soldiers or civilians. I doubt the Romans or the Vikings or the Saxons or the Angles, Jutes, Celts, Goths etc, etc, lamented the loss of their warriors- they just glorified the act of dying in battle & provided a 'paradise' for their souls to dwell. We have bugles & salutes & coffins draped in flags. We build war memorials & we have a minutes silence- in short, we glorify their death, not mourn it. The war poets, Wilfred Owen & Siegfried Sassoon knew this as they wrote in the trenches. We refer to them as heroes. Generals refer to them as 'dispensable'. So this is more possible than we imagine,sadly. Google 'Lusitania'- see for yourself- it's happened before & it'll continue to happen because in our certainty that our governments are beyond reproach, we close our eyes to the obvious- even when it is being demolished before our eyes on every news channel on the planet, we'll see what they want us to see- a terrorist attack.

[Warwick]

This is an intriguing issue, but (just like the Kennedy assasination) any 'conspiracies' came after and not before the event. The fact is, which cannot be denied - I for on saw it occur live on TV in England - those passenger aircraft were crashed into their targets by human pilots, who died in the process and took many innocent passengers and crew with them. no matter how low my opinion of the US 'security agencies', no matter how dishonest and ruthless they have been in the past, I can't quite believe that even the most fanatical would give their life in such a fashion (from the POV of selfishness, if nothing else).

This attack had been building up for some time, foreshadowed by suicide attacks on US military targets and embassies in Africa and the Gulf, and an earlier attack on the WYC itself. The most shameful thing is that Bush had foolishly cut the budget for the sort of security and surveillance that might have nipped it in the bud, and the incompetence and lack of communication which the FBI, CIA, NSA, etc etc... did the rest, and let them through. Trying to conceal this from the public led to the same sort of suspicions that produced the Kennedy phenomena.

What made all this far worse, was the disgraceful way that the US and UK (in particular) governments exploited this tragedy to push through legislation undermining our civil rights... unforgiveable IMO! The utter stupidity of Blair, painting himself into a corner where his only options were to admit he'd either been a fool, or a liar, was the icing on the cake - such an arrogant fellow could never do that!

The combined incompetance of Blair and Bush, and the greedy ambitions of the latter reguarding oil and power in the Middle East, have cost untold thousands of lives, and will cost many more, the legacy of their attogamce and dishonesty. Had Blair not ignored the biggest public demonstrations ever seen against the war with Iraq, he might have saved his sorry backside. As it is, I would cheerfully see it kicked from here to kingdom come... before he 'earns' even more undeserves £££££'s on the 'lecture circuit (same goes for his horrible wife!)

Ooooer.. but political! ECHELON will no doubt pick this one up... ha ha....

[karen1977]

You're absolutely right about our civil liberties being stomped on - i will go to jail before i have an I.D. card, for example! He was 24 years out, but Orwell may have had a point...

[Warwick]

I'm afraid you may be right about Orwell... we already have Big Brother, how ghastly is that?
On a more serious note, the government is obsessed about surveillance and getting information about everyone and anything it can, and I am not convinced this is for the benefit of the public (i.e., those it allegedly serves). This paranoia about illegal immigrants and terrorists is the perfect excuse to frighten everyone into compliance and accept some pretty outrageous invasions of their privacy and reductions in theit civil tights.
Altready Magna Carta has been infringed, as I discovered myself - fined for some motoring offence without ever being summonsed to any court, or given any chance to defend my self against a charge - summary justice in other words, against the most important principle of Magna Carta - the right to justice.
That fine defence would not have impressed the computer or minor govt lacky who posted the (very threatening) 'final demand' (and first demand in fact) - good thing I'd moved and flogged the car! This sounds like a minor, trivial bit of nit-picking, and maybe it is more my indignance and ******-mindedness more than any sinister attempt to ignore justice and undermine the ancient rights we have as citizens, but I'm not so sure. It may the tiop of a very dirty and unpleasant iceberg!
Bit political this, but why not? Something which affects us all in the end. I don't think it is some Nazi style attempt to subdue and control us as people, more a 'fianancial' thing, where bank accounts and incomes can be examined at will by so-called 'security agencies', and fines debited from anyone at will, without due process of law. That would be a 'government dream'! It must never be allowed IMHO!
The government has already lost the trust and respect of most people, following years of Mrs T and the debacle of Blair and Brown. I don't see why they need any more control than they've already abused, the interests of the public (be it financial or safety) seem to bother them only when elections loom. For decades now, various governments have tried to reduce the right to trial by jury, on various pretexts, which is one of the most important rights we have IMO... it must never happen!
That's enough ranting I think... I do so detest the misuse of certain words like 'security', 'defence', 'terrorism' and 'public interest', when uttered by the lacklustre politicos of today. All they are really interested in 'securing' is their own overpaid positions, most of them!

[noblefuse]

To the conspiracy people who believe the government and rich people hide energy from humanity as they control us.

man just

walked out of the woods last century- used to cut the arm to bleed out infections-used to ride a horse or walk all day to see someone several miles

away- man is still a savage and stupid creature that must learn humility across the planet until THY will be done on earth as it is ion heaven- A

utopian world-

there are no solutions yet- man is aggressive looking for them- in deep oceans- in frozen arctic lands- against neighbors with the will to kill anyone

in the path as one side dominates the other-

YOU ARE slaves of the rich no doubt- from pyramids to working in factories- just gives us employment-food shelter and some dignity as i try to live my

life with children an opportunity to grow with infinity as a god given right-

technology and growth makes man better every century-

man is still savage-

I have now been on the net for 20 months with a never before experiment in history of science only to be ignored and abused- not only lay persons- but

scientists themselves- for they are human with frailty are filled with ignorance- jealousy-vanity-drive to survive mechanism which makes you king and

others subservient unless they sign your paycheck-

20 months now since april 2007 as all just ignore- this is built upon my observations of 10 years with other solutions to a rich gluttonous people that

seek viagra and extacy for immediate gains like a caged mouse that kills itself with self stimulating sexual triggers-

solomon azar

***Edited By Monitor*** Any future postings being offensive to other users of the forum will be deleted and your account may be suspended***

[Warwick]

Noblefuse, you may think you are the messiah, but you are... yes, well, I won't say it! However tempting...

You seem more interested in global warming than civil rights, but can't you see the two are connected? If anyone or anything holds humanity by the throat, it isn't so much any government, but the international manipulators of finance and trade - having been given carte blanche to do as they will by neo-conservatives, who wordship the ideal of 'free trade' as something tantamount to 'holy'.

The most greedy, self serving and ruthless corporations and cartels who operate at large in this area, are the oil companies, who have apparent complete control over the US and UK governments. Terrified of losing power as their limited stocks dwindlr, anything which threatens their stranglehold on the world (for that's what they have) is ruthlessly suppressed or eliminated, via their 'official lackies' in various governments.

To date, there is only one known way of economically, viably producing a renewable substitute for oil, by fast-growing vegetation. What is this marvellous plant? - you may well ask... surprise surprise, it is hemp... or marujana, to give it twi of its many names. Despite a good two centuries of research into the harmful effects of the stuff on human beings, it remains banned... causing no end of harm to us all.

Don't get me wrong, I have seen the harm this stuff can do for myself (ahem.. cough!), but this is a recent phenomena brought about -ironically - from it being banned. Careful selective breeding of stronger and stronger (in THC, the 'active ingredient') strains, has produced truly mind blowing skunkweed, nothing like the innocuous and virtually harmless 'wild type'. It was once used to make ropes, now it is used to liquefy brains... a not entirely unpleasant experience they say (cough, splutter), but a regrettable effect of banning this potential oil replacement.

I have no definite evidence of the oil industry pressurising governments to continue this ban, yet strongly suspect that someone, somewhere will have. This industry has been utterly self-serving and ruthless since it came to prominence in the last century, destructive of environments, responsible for much harmful pollution, and even the odd war now and then.
GWB and his family are clearly in there pocket, and the UK clearly in their thrall... time they met their long deserved come uppance IMO?

[windigo]

I have been trained in several branches of fire fighting including Hazmat training. The conditions needed to even HEAT up reinforced steel to even glow red is about 4000 F. An open air jet fuel fire burns at about 1900F. Not hot enough to even dent Reinforced steel. If it was we would have engines melting right off the planes in midflight ;) There are only two man-made conditions for reinforced steel to melt. One is a blast furnace, which is how it is forged in the first place. Second is thermite (or other shaped charge) explosives. If you look a footage of "groud zero" you will notice several diagonal cut steel beams sticking out of the ground. That plus the large molten puddles of this steel in the sub-basements and subway tunnels clearly shows that thermite was used. If the buildings fell due to metal fatique due to fire. Those beams would have been twisted into pretzels NOT clean breaks....

Next issue was the new chopper footage of that day, some of the footage SHOWS the chain reaction flashes just before the collapse. Go to some of the new stations and look over their footage of that day.